Religious Sect Vs new Religion = Risk Scale which one stronger
DID THE BRITISH CREATE WAHHABISM?
Posted by Zmeselo on 15 Oct 2012, 06:28
Memoirs Of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Confessions of a British Spy and British Enmity Against Islam
Author(s) M. Sıddık Gümüş
Publisher Hakikat Kitabevi
Publication date 2001
Memoirs Of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East or Confessions of a British Spy is a document purporting to be the account by an 18th century British agent, Hempher, of his instrumental role in founding the conservative Islamic reform movement of Wahhabism.
The book has been denounced by some Muslims and called an "imaginary fictional narrative, coined deliberately to discredit" Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab "and his followers by the British."[1] In the West it is considered a forgery and has been described as "an Anglophobic variation on `The Protocols of the Elders of Zion`”[2]
In the book's story, a British spy named Hempher, working in the early 1700s, disguises himself as a Muslim and infiltrates the Ottoman Empire with the goal of weakening it to destroy Islam once and for all. He tells his readers: "when the unity of Muslims is broken and the common sympathy among them is impaired, their forces will be dissolved and thus we shall easily destroy them... We, the English people, have to make mischief and arouse schism in all our colonies in order that we may live in welfare and luxury."[3]
Hempher intends ultimately to weaken Muslim morals by promoting "alcohol and fornication," but his first step is to promote innovation and disorder in Islam by creating Wahhabism, which is to gain credibility by being on the surface morally strict. For this purpose, he enlists "a gullible, hotheaded young Iraqi in Basra named Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab".[4] Hempher corrupts and flatters Wahhab until the man is willing to found his own sect.
In the story, Hempher is one of 5,000 British agents with the assignment of weakening Muslims, which the British government plans to increase to 100,000 by the end of the 18th century. Hempher writes, "when we reach this number we shall have brought all Muslims under our sway" and Islam will be rendered "into a miserable state from which it will never recover again."[3]
Controversy
In the West the "Memoirs" have been described as "probably the labor of a Sunni Muslim author whose intent is to present Muslims as both too holy and too weak to organize anything as destructive as Wahhabism."[2] Bernard Haykel of Harvard's Olin Institute describes the document as an anti-Wahhabi forgery, "probably fabricated by one Ayyub Sabri Pasha"[5], despite which the document has significant currency in the Middle East, according to Haykel[5]. Sabri Pasha was an Ottoman writer who studied a the naval academy, and earned the rank of naval officer, serving for a time in the Hijaz and Yemen. He wrote historical works on the Saudi dynasty[6] and died in 1890[7]. In "The Beginning and Spread of Wahhabism", he recounts the story of Abdul Wahhab's association with Hempher the British Spy, and their plot to create a new religion.[8]
A debunking by a Muslim author (Abul Haarith) points out that no evidence of Hempher can be found in computer database searches of libraries and rare books, and that facts and incidents related in the book do not make sense. The "Memoirs" claim Hempher travelled to Basra in 1712 and there met Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab, a student who spoke Turkish, Persian and Arabic. In fact, ibn Abdul Wahhab would have been 9-10 years old and living in his native region of Najd at that time, since he was born in 1115H (1703/1704CE) and did not leave Najd, except for hajj, to "travel to seek knowledge until 1722".[1] Abul Haarith also notes that the book has Hempher boasting that the British Empire "was so vast it was said that the sun did not set within its boundaries," when in fact this claim was not, and could not, have been made until about a century later.[1]
The actual birth date of Muhammad Ibn Abd-Alwahab is disputed however. The famous Islamic Scholar and historian Ahmad Zayni Dahlan Al-Makkiyy claims, in his book Fitnat ul Wahhabiyah, that Ibn Abd-Alwahhab was born in the year 1111H or 1699, making him 14 at the time of his supposed metting with Hempher, and not 9 years old [9] [10].
Other Wahhabi complaints about the memoir are that it would have been unlikely for the British to have supported and helped bin Abdul Wahhab as "there was no British presence in that region in the mid-18th century", and that there are only two explicit mentions of dates (1710CE and 1730CE) in a work purportedly based on a diary, which generally have dated entries.[7]
[edit]See also
War against Islam#Confessions of a British Spy
[edit]References
^ a b c Who is Hampher (hempher)? scroll down to "Humphrey’s ‘Memoirs’" by Abul Haarith
^ a b Caught in the Crossfire by George Packer, May 17, 2004
^ a b HizmetBooks
^ The Saga of "Hempher," Purported British Spy, an extract from The Hidden Hand: Middle East Fears of Conspiracy, pp. 211-12. Daniel Pipes, December 1996
^ a b » Anti-Wahhabism: a footnote Middle East Strategy at Harvard
^ » Viquipèdia - Ayyub Sabri Pasha
^ a b Evidence That Hempher's Diaries Are a Forgery Abu.Iyaad | wahhabis.com| 20 August 2011
^ » The Beginning and Spread of Wahhabism www.sufi.it
^ Fitnat-ul-Wahhabiyah, Ahmad Zayni Dahlan Al-Makkiyy
^ http://www.islamicity.com/PrayerTimes/h ... artner.htm
Memoirs Of Hempher
PREFACE
Memoirs Of Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East is the title of a document that was published in series (episodes) in the German paper Spiegel and later on in a prominent French paper. A Lebanese doctor translated the document to the Arabic language and from there on it was translated to English and other languages. Waqf Ikhlas publications put out and circulated the document in English in hard copy and electronically under the title: Confessions of a British spy and British enmity against Islam. This document reveals the true background of the Wahhabi movement which was innovated by Mohammad bin abdul Wahhab and explains the numerous falsehood they spread in the name of Islam and exposes their role of enmity towards the religion of Islam and towards prophet Mohammad and towards Muslims at large. No wonder the Wahhabis today stand as the backbone of terrorism allowing and financing and planning shedding the blood of Muslims and other innocent people. Their well known history of terrorism as documented in Fitnatul Wahhabiyyah by the mufti of Makkah, Sheikh Ahmad Zayni Dahlan, and their current assassinations and contravention is due to their ill belief that all are blasphemers save themselves. May Allah protect our nation from their evils.
Memoirs Of Hempher- Our Great Britain is very vast. The sun rises over its seas, and sets, again, below its seas. Our State is relatively weak yet in its colonies in India, China and Middle East.
2 In the Hijree year 1122, C.E. 1710, the Minister of Colonies sent me to Egypt, Iraq, Hidjaz and Istanbul to act as a spy and to obtain information necessary and sufficient for the breaking up of Muslims.
3 My friends had returned to London before I did and they had already received new commands from the Ministry. I, too, was given new commands upon returning. Unfortunately, only six of us were back.
4 When I arrived in Basra, I settled in a mosque. The imaam of the mosque was a Sunnite person of Arabic origin named Shaikh 'Umar Taaee. When I met him I began to chat with him.
5 It was on one of those days when Muhammad of Najd and I had become very intimate friends that I received a message from London ordering me to leave for the cities of Kerbelaa and Najaf, the two most popular Shiite centers of knowledge and spirituality. So I had to put an end to my company with Muhammad of Najd and leave Basra.
6 I stayed in Baghdad for a time. Then, receiving the message ordering me to return to London, I left. In London, I talked with the secretary and some officials of the Ministry.
7 Having enjoyed the first secret, I was looking forward to knowing the second secret. Eventually one day the secretary explained the second secret he had promised.
Memoirs Of Hempher
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Confessions of a British Spy and British Enmity Against Islam
Author(s) M. Sıddık Gümüş
Publisher Hakikat Kitabevi
Publication date 2001
Memoirs Of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East or Confessions of a British Spy is a document purporting to be the account by an 18th century British agent, Hempher, of his instrumental role in founding the conservative Islamic reform movement of Wahhabism.
The book has been denounced by some Muslims and called an "imaginary fictional narrative, coined deliberately to discredit" Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab "and his followers by the British."[1] In the West it is considered a forgery and has been described as "an Anglophobic variation on `The Protocols of the Elders of Zion`”[2]
In the book's story, a British spy named Hempher, working in the early 1700s, disguises himself as a Muslim and infiltrates the Ottoman Empire with the goal of weakening it to destroy Islam once and for all. He tells his readers: "when the unity of Muslims is broken and the common sympathy among them is impaired, their forces will be dissolved and thus we shall easily destroy them... We, the English people, have to make mischief and arouse schism in all our colonies in order that we may live in welfare and luxury."[3]
Hempher intends ultimately to weaken Muslim morals by promoting "alcohol and fornication," but his first step is to promote innovation and disorder in Islam by creating Wahhabism, which is to gain credibility by being on the surface morally strict. For this purpose, he enlists "a gullible, hotheaded young Iraqi in Basra named Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab".[4] Hempher corrupts and flatters Wahhab until the man is willing to found his own sect.
In the story, Hempher is one of 5,000 British agents with the assignment of weakening Muslims, which the British government plans to increase to 100,000 by the end of the 18th century. Hempher writes, "when we reach this number we shall have brought all Muslims under our sway" and Islam will be rendered "into a miserable state from which it will never recover again."[3]
Controversy
In the West the "Memoirs" have been described as "probably the labor of a Sunni Muslim author whose intent is to present Muslims as both too holy and too weak to organize anything as destructive as Wahhabism."[2] Bernard Haykel of Harvard's Olin Institute describes the document as an anti-Wahhabi forgery, "probably fabricated by one Ayyub Sabri Pasha"[5], despite which the document has significant currency in the Middle East, according to Haykel[5]. Sabri Pasha was an Ottoman writer who studied a the naval academy, and earned the rank of naval officer, serving for a time in the Hijaz and Yemen. He wrote historical works on the Saudi dynasty[6] and died in 1890[7]. In "The Beginning and Spread of Wahhabism", he recounts the story of Abdul Wahhab's association with Hempher the British Spy, and their plot to create a new religion.[8]
A debunking by a Muslim author (Abul Haarith) points out that no evidence of Hempher can be found in computer database searches of libraries and rare books, and that facts and incidents related in the book do not make sense. The "Memoirs" claim Hempher travelled to Basra in 1712 and there met Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab, a student who spoke Turkish, Persian and Arabic. In fact, ibn Abdul Wahhab would have been 9-10 years old and living in his native region of Najd at that time, since he was born in 1115H (1703/1704CE) and did not leave Najd, except for hajj, to "travel to seek knowledge until 1722".[1] Abul Haarith also notes that the book has Hempher boasting that the British Empire "was so vast it was said that the sun did not set within its boundaries," when in fact this claim was not, and could not, have been made until about a century later.[1]
The actual birth date of Muhammad Ibn Abd-Alwahab is disputed however. The famous Islamic Scholar and historian Ahmad Zayni Dahlan Al-Makkiyy claims, in his book Fitnat ul Wahhabiyah, that Ibn Abd-Alwahhab was born in the year 1111H or 1699, making him 14 at the time of his supposed metting with Hempher, and not 9 years old [9] [10].
Other Wahhabi complaints about the memoir are that it would have been unlikely for the British to have supported and helped bin Abdul Wahhab as "there was no British presence in that region in the mid-18th century", and that there are only two explicit mentions of dates (1710CE and 1730CE) in a work purportedly based on a diary, which generally have dated entries.[7]
[edit]See also
War against Islam#Confessions of a British Spy
[edit]References
^ a b c Who is Hampher (hempher)? scroll down to "Humphrey’s ‘Memoirs’" by Abul Haarith
^ a b Caught in the Crossfire by George Packer, May 17, 2004
^ a b HizmetBooks
^ The Saga of "Hempher," Purported British Spy, an extract from The Hidden Hand: Middle East Fears of Conspiracy, pp. 211-12. Daniel Pipes, December 1996
^ a b » Anti-Wahhabism: a footnote Middle East Strategy at Harvard
^ » Viquipèdia - Ayyub Sabri Pasha
^ a b Evidence That Hempher's Diaries Are a Forgery Abu.Iyaad | wahhabis.com| 20 August 2011
^ » The Beginning and Spread of Wahhabism www.sufi.it
^ Fitnat-ul-Wahhabiyah, Ahmad Zayni Dahlan Al-Makkiyy
^ http://www.islamicity.com/PrayerTimes/h ... artner.htm
Memoirs Of Hempher
PREFACE
Memoirs Of Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East is the title of a document that was published in series (episodes) in the German paper Spiegel and later on in a prominent French paper. A Lebanese doctor translated the document to the Arabic language and from there on it was translated to English and other languages. Waqf Ikhlas publications put out and circulated the document in English in hard copy and electronically under the title: Confessions of a British spy and British enmity against Islam. This document reveals the true background of the Wahhabi movement which was innovated by Mohammad bin abdul Wahhab and explains the numerous falsehood they spread in the name of Islam and exposes their role of enmity towards the religion of Islam and towards prophet Mohammad and towards Muslims at large. No wonder the Wahhabis today stand as the backbone of terrorism allowing and financing and planning shedding the blood of Muslims and other innocent people. Their well known history of terrorism as documented in Fitnatul Wahhabiyyah by the mufti of Makkah, Sheikh Ahmad Zayni Dahlan, and their current assassinations and contravention is due to their ill belief that all are blasphemers save themselves. May Allah protect our nation from their evils.
Memoirs Of Hempher- Our Great Britain is very vast. The sun rises over its seas, and sets, again, below its seas. Our State is relatively weak yet in its colonies in India, China and Middle East.
2 In the Hijree year 1122, C.E. 1710, the Minister of Colonies sent me to Egypt, Iraq, Hidjaz and Istanbul to act as a spy and to obtain information necessary and sufficient for the breaking up of Muslims.
3 My friends had returned to London before I did and they had already received new commands from the Ministry. I, too, was given new commands upon returning. Unfortunately, only six of us were back.
4 When I arrived in Basra, I settled in a mosque. The imaam of the mosque was a Sunnite person of Arabic origin named Shaikh 'Umar Taaee. When I met him I began to chat with him.
5 It was on one of those days when Muhammad of Najd and I had become very intimate friends that I received a message from London ordering me to leave for the cities of Kerbelaa and Najaf, the two most popular Shiite centers of knowledge and spirituality. So I had to put an end to my company with Muhammad of Najd and leave Basra.
6 I stayed in Baghdad for a time. Then, receiving the message ordering me to return to London, I left. In London, I talked with the secretary and some officials of the Ministry.
7 Having enjoyed the first secret, I was looking forward to knowing the second secret. Eventually one day the secretary explained the second secret he had promised.
Memoirs Of Hempher
Re: DID THE BRITISH CREATE WAHHABISM?
Posted by Conformist on 15 Oct 2012, 11:48
Apologists have argued the Memoirs Of Mr. Hempher is a fabrication, but a careful examination of the text shows this is nothing but a British blackops to divide and weaken Islam.
The reason actually had to do with question of Palestine, and the control of the Islamic holy sites. The Al Saud family are the blood relatives of the Donmeh Jews of Turkey, the Donmeh were descended from the false messiah Shabbati Zevi, who later converted to Islam.
The Al Sauds were descended from a Donmeh Jew from Basra, who used to be a sucessful businessman there. He married an Arab Bedouin woman, then he developed a cover story about how he was an Arab who immigrated from the Hijaz, then after building up a powerful family using the system of polygamy, he returned to Arabia and his family massacred the rightful rulers and became the Al Saud family.
Then with the help of british operatives the Al Sauds formed an alliance with the Wahhabis, otherwise no one in Arabia would have accepted them as the rightful rulers. The men who had the lineal right to rule Arabia are the Hasemites of Jordan.
The Donmeh of Turkey were the ones who were involved in the transfer of Jerusalem to British hands in 1915, making a success of the Balfour declaration, and the later paving the way for the Zionist conquest of Palestine. The Young Turks, the most prominent of whom was Ataturk, were all Donmeh Jews.
It is an ugly story, it takes a strong stomach to assimilate it.
The reason actually had to do with question of Palestine, and the control of the Islamic holy sites. The Al Saud family are the blood relatives of the Donmeh Jews of Turkey, the Donmeh were descended from the false messiah Shabbati Zevi, who later converted to Islam.
The Al Sauds were descended from a Donmeh Jew from Basra, who used to be a sucessful businessman there. He married an Arab Bedouin woman, then he developed a cover story about how he was an Arab who immigrated from the Hijaz, then after building up a powerful family using the system of polygamy, he returned to Arabia and his family massacred the rightful rulers and became the Al Saud family.
Then with the help of british operatives the Al Sauds formed an alliance with the Wahhabis, otherwise no one in Arabia would have accepted them as the rightful rulers. The men who had the lineal right to rule Arabia are the Hasemites of Jordan.
The Donmeh of Turkey were the ones who were involved in the transfer of Jerusalem to British hands in 1915, making a success of the Balfour declaration, and the later paving the way for the Zionist conquest of Palestine. The Young Turks, the most prominent of whom was Ataturk, were all Donmeh Jews.
It is an ugly story, it takes a strong stomach to assimilate it.
Re: DID THE BRITISH CREATE WAHHABISM?
Posted by revolutions on 15 Oct 2012, 12:10
Interesting read.... thanks for sharing.
Re: DID THE BRITISH CREATE WAHHABISM?
Posted by Conformist on 15 Oct 2012, 14:28
There is more to read for those interested,
There is a book by Arthur Koestler titled The Thirteenth Tribe
http://www.fantompowa.info/koestlerindex.htm
It provides evidence to show the Zionist Jews are not Jews at all, they are a Turco-Mongol tribe known as the Khazars, who converted to Judaism wholesale,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Co ... to_Judaism
There is nothing Semitic or Jewish about the Zionists. As there is nothing Arab about the Al Sauds.
There is a book by Arthur Koestler titled The Thirteenth Tribe
http://www.fantompowa.info/koestlerindex.htm
It provides evidence to show the Zionist Jews are not Jews at all, they are a Turco-Mongol tribe known as the Khazars, who converted to Judaism wholesale,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Co ... to_Judaism
There is nothing Semitic or Jewish about the Zionists. As there is nothing Arab about the Al Sauds.
Re: DID THE BRITISH CREATE WAHHABISM?
Posted by Zmeselo on 16 Oct 2012, 05:14
Comformist,
when I think about this crazy and unbelievable issue, what surprises me more than the actual fact, is their ability to cover it up. I mean if the world population knew what/who these people are, we would see huge changes happening around the world. The other thing we must not loose sight of is the fact that the majority of the ashkenazi, eventhough not Abrahams children, are innocent of crimes against humanity. It´s the international jew, who´s the problem. Even jews were their victims in WWII. I believe the partial solution to this is for the jews of the world to wake up and point their fingers towards their own instead of shouting "anti-semitism" for every criticizm they hear about banksters and political husslers in their midst. If they don´t clean house and come clean, what happened to them in WWII, will happen again. They should apprehend the Rothchilds and the Rockefellers amongst them, leave palestine to the palestinians and make amends in that way!
when I think about this crazy and unbelievable issue, what surprises me more than the actual fact, is their ability to cover it up. I mean if the world population knew what/who these people are, we would see huge changes happening around the world. The other thing we must not loose sight of is the fact that the majority of the ashkenazi, eventhough not Abrahams children, are innocent of crimes against humanity. It´s the international jew, who´s the problem. Even jews were their victims in WWII. I believe the partial solution to this is for the jews of the world to wake up and point their fingers towards their own instead of shouting "anti-semitism" for every criticizm they hear about banksters and political husslers in their midst. If they don´t clean house and come clean, what happened to them in WWII, will happen again. They should apprehend the Rothchilds and the Rockefellers amongst them, leave palestine to the palestinians and make amends in that way!
Re: DID THE BRITISH CREATE WAHHABISM?
Posted by Conformist on 16 Oct 2012, 11:43
Dear Z,
You raised some interesting points,
1. The cover up.
The cover up is huge, despite the fact that more and more people are awakening today. The technique is the old carrot and stick method.
If you obey them you get the carrot, in the form of aid, jobs, trade opportunities and so on.
If you resist you get the stick like the destruction of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and so on.
All world political and business leaders know who rules the globe behind the scenes, but they are so terrified of the power of this mysterious force, they betray the people to save themselves.
2. The majority of the world population can't know, because it is not interested in politics or the intricacies of how the complex money system works. But the few who know are not strong enough to make a change except opt out of this evil system. Many men have said it the past, "only if the people knew." But the people don't have the inclination to know.
3. The Jewish masses themselves have been the greatest victims, they have done nothing to deserve this, but the power hungry men are hiding behind the Jews, using them as their shields.
4. Hitler's frustration was caused by the international bankers destroying Germany while hiding behind the Jewish label. If you look at the following 1933 headline, you will see they declared war against Germany first, that was in 1933. Hitler was only reacting to that.
http://www.whale.to/b/Judea-Declares-War-On-Germany.jpg
Then you had the Weimar Republic which caused the torment of the people of Germany, if you research who was behind that horrible regime, you will not be surprised by the backlash during the Nazi regime.
5. Today most of the world has been conquered psychologically. In Africa the last independent regime was Libya, and it is now gone, Eritrea too is refusing to submit, but I don't know how long it can endure. Other than that the entire African continent is theirs now. They have a death grip on Europe and Russia. Now China to is under their strong influence. The only two nations that haven't yet been conquered are Islam and America, they are next on the list to be destroyed by war. Sorry to depress you, but if we are to be realistic, then no one can stop them, in a matter of decades they will conquer and ensalve the world, there is no way to stop them.
If you have the time I recommend the following books, they will open your eyes even wider.
Tragedy and Hope by Caroll Quigley
The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski
The Conquest of the World by the Jews by Major Osman Bey
Also the following short essay by Mark Twain is helpful,
http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl- ... ngjews.htm
If you prefer to listen rather than read, you can make your own audiobooks by using the following program.
http://www.neospeech.com/products.aspx
Just find the text, and convert it to audio using the Julie engine, you will get a very realistic and clear to hear audiobook.
You raised some interesting points,
1. The cover up.
The cover up is huge, despite the fact that more and more people are awakening today. The technique is the old carrot and stick method.
If you obey them you get the carrot, in the form of aid, jobs, trade opportunities and so on.
If you resist you get the stick like the destruction of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and so on.
All world political and business leaders know who rules the globe behind the scenes, but they are so terrified of the power of this mysterious force, they betray the people to save themselves.
2. The majority of the world population can't know, because it is not interested in politics or the intricacies of how the complex money system works. But the few who know are not strong enough to make a change except opt out of this evil system. Many men have said it the past, "only if the people knew." But the people don't have the inclination to know.
3. The Jewish masses themselves have been the greatest victims, they have done nothing to deserve this, but the power hungry men are hiding behind the Jews, using them as their shields.
4. Hitler's frustration was caused by the international bankers destroying Germany while hiding behind the Jewish label. If you look at the following 1933 headline, you will see they declared war against Germany first, that was in 1933. Hitler was only reacting to that.
http://www.whale.to/b/Judea-Declares-War-On-Germany.jpg
Then you had the Weimar Republic which caused the torment of the people of Germany, if you research who was behind that horrible regime, you will not be surprised by the backlash during the Nazi regime.
5. Today most of the world has been conquered psychologically. In Africa the last independent regime was Libya, and it is now gone, Eritrea too is refusing to submit, but I don't know how long it can endure. Other than that the entire African continent is theirs now. They have a death grip on Europe and Russia. Now China to is under their strong influence. The only two nations that haven't yet been conquered are Islam and America, they are next on the list to be destroyed by war. Sorry to depress you, but if we are to be realistic, then no one can stop them, in a matter of decades they will conquer and ensalve the world, there is no way to stop them.
If you have the time I recommend the following books, they will open your eyes even wider.
Tragedy and Hope by Caroll Quigley
The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski
The Conquest of the World by the Jews by Major Osman Bey
Also the following short essay by Mark Twain is helpful,
http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl- ... ngjews.htm
If you prefer to listen rather than read, you can make your own audiobooks by using the following program.
http://www.neospeech.com/products.aspx
Just find the text, and convert it to audio using the Julie engine, you will get a very realistic and clear to hear audiobook.
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posted by Unknown @ 12:53 PM
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Hedeyatprapto Imam, Imamat then who is present Imam on successions from Wahabi faith
Wahhabism is a man made religion
Discussion in 'Seniors Cafe' started by fatman17, May 27, 2015.
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